So I was wondering...

[which_chick]

What with Recent Events and all, I was wondering if I was stopped by ICE, how would I prove I was a citizen?



I got permabanned for asking /r/AskAnAmerican how I would prove citizenship if I was detained in an ICE stop. Apparently that's not a question you can ask in /r/AskAnAmerican. It's "too political" to ask how you would prove citizenship if you needed to do that.

I think it's a decent question. I have a birth certificate (a piece of paper that has no pictures or footprints or handprints of me) and a driver's license (has a picture and current address) and a passport (has a picture and a birthdate but no address) and a social security ("not to be used for identification") card that has no address or picture and is just a little paper card with no security features.

To be fair, I don't carry any of those except the driver's license with me when I leave the house. A driver's license is not proof of citizenship and my driver's license in my state is not RealID anyway because you have to pay more for that and it's a pain in the ass. Also, I do not need a RealID for travel because I have a passport.

The thread, which was fascinating for the short half hour it existed before the permaban, was full of people claiming a RealID proved citizenship and other people claiming a RealID does not prove citizenship. People like to claim things on the internet.

Other folks suggested that US citizens should carry their passport cards with them at all times. The US passport is a blue book with paper pages and (modern) one plastic page. It is not wallet-sized and would be inconvenient to carry on every trip to Home Depot or the grocery store or whatever. But, the US also offers a "passport card" that is wallet sized like a driver's license. You can get one when you get your passport but it doesn't come included and is a separate charge. I didn't know these were A Thing but apparently they are a thing. At any rate, I do not have one.

Some people pointed out that ICE folks could look you up in the government database with just your photo ID or whatever, but it sure does not look, in the online videos I've seen, like the ICE officers are typing in your name and DoB and residence off your ID into a tablet to verify it with some database before they haul folks off. That does not appear to be what is happening in the videos.

Also, if they were doing that (just offscreen where we couldn't see them, politely asking to see ID and verifying and stuff), then how come they've picked up and held actual American citizens for multiple days at a time? That doesn't seem like a thing that should happen. (My source for it is happening is this article by propublica. Yes, they are liberal rabble-rousers. No, that does not mean that everything they put forth is lies.)

I have never dealt with ICE but I've been involved with state police in traffic stops. When I've been stopped, the police asks for my papers (driver's license, car registration, proof of insurance) so that they can verify this information against their databases and what my license plate on the car says. In a traffic stop, the police can tell if my car is stolen, if I have valid insurance on the car, if I have any outstanding warrants, if my driver's license is valid, etc. They can tell A LOT of things about me. I feel that the government databases are pretty good in that regard.

So, if ICE was really asking people for ID and checking it, they should be able to identify citizens vs. non-citizens pretty easily. And yet we're having these errors... errors that I feel moved to point out will affect persons who don't look American enough to suit ICE. While this has always been something of a problem, our (biased) Supreme Court recently ruled that the Kavanaugh Stop is 100% reasonable. (From Wikipedia: A "Kavanaugh Stop is a law enforcement practice in the United States in which federal agents can stop and detain a person based on their perceived ethnicity, spoken language, and occupation. Kavanaugh stops originated in a September 2025 Supreme Court concurrence by Justice Brett Kavanaugh in Noem v. Vasquez Perdomo." It's interesting to note here that Supreme Court Justice Brett Boof Kavanaugh does not like this law enforcement practice being called the Kavanaugh Stop. But it's a thing he did as a Supreme Court Justice. You'd think he'd be proud of his rulings and opinions. Doesn't he know that it's a Big Boy thing to have a policy named after him, and in only 7 years as a SCJ, too! I bet his mother is proud. I can't understand why he doesn't want his name on the racist-ass policy about making it OK to detain people for Not Looking American Enough.)

So, anyway, what are you supposed to do if you are detained by ICE for being suspected of not being a citizen or failing to look Ayrian American enough?

The National Immigrant Justice Center has this to say:

If you are a U.S. citizen or have lawful immigration status: Show your passport, legal permanent resident card, work permit, or other documentation of your status. If you are over the age of 18, you should carry your papers with you at all times.

Papers please? PAPERS PLEASE? WTF kind of country is this? Do we not have the 4th Amendment? (The 4th prevents the average citizen from unreasonable search and seizure, including search and seizure of their documents. I also live in a state that is not a "Stop and Identify" state so I do not have to show identification to a police officer unless I am under reasonable suspicion of a crime. Check your local laws on that, it varies by state.)

Furthermore, ICE is not police and they have "no jurisdiction over American citizens" except when they shoot you in the face for being a fucking bitch. They have that jurisdiction, I guess.

Are your rights worth the paper they're printed on if you cannot exercise them for fear of being shot in the face?

Comments

[unicornduke]

I think the worst thing I've read is that ICE has stopped citizens who are POC, who had their passports/citizenship on them and ICE claimed they were fake, confiscated the papers and arrested them anyway. Which has happened to a number of people including a woman who was deported before her lawyers could locate her. She can come back, she's a citizen, but like holy shit. Papers please only even works if the people are interested in following the actual law and they super aren't. Roving gang of horrible people doing the fascism. cool cool cool

[which_chick]

Yeah, it's a bit confusing to me because they wear black body armor instead of brown shirts. I think we got ourselves what ya might call a penis potato* situation going on over here.

*try using nicknames for those words

[spiffikins]

When I was living in the US under a H1-B work permit, *legally* the rules said that I should carry my I94 card with me at all times. I never, ever did - because that stupid little paper card was a)not a useful size to put in my wallet and b)REALLY FREAKING IMPORTANT and c)would have been ridiculously difficult to replace if I should lose it?

I kept it in my passport, and only ever took it with me when I was leaving/entering the US.

Once I got my green card, again, LEGALLY, I was supposed to carry it with me at all times. Again - that thing stayed in the pouch with my passport (and social security card) in my file cabinet. And I only ever carried it when I was crossing borders.

Looking online, it sounds like while this regulation has been in place since 1952, it was not really enforced - until recently, when this administration released "new guidance" saying that they will be enforcing this MUCH more stringently.

Which, comes to my point - in the 25.5 years I have lived in this country, nobody has ever questioned whether or not I am a citizen, except for the first 6 months, when apparently I said "eh?" a lot and people guessed I was Canadian pretty frequently.

But nobody in law enforcement or any type of government official, has ever asked me to produce my papers OTHER than at a border crossing. Probably because I don't have any kind of built-in tan.


When I got my US citizenship, I immediately procured a passport and passport card - because I need something to show my status - and I'm not carrying around my certificate of naturalization :D

I don't carry the passport card though, and I'm wondering if I should start. Although - your point is valid - ICE is not checking ID, they are not looking anyone up in any database - they are just kidnapping people off the street, or murdering them. So having that proof is pretty irrelevant in the moment. But I suppose once you are in the detainment center, you need some way to convince them to let you go? I wouldn't hold my breath that you'd get to KEEP your possessions though, so who knows if you'd still have it to show anyone? Maybe it's still safer to have it at home, and (hopefully) have someone bring it to spring you?


This timeline sucks.

[ranunculus]

I got a passport card some years ago because: It was as good as a passport for crossing the Canadian border (by car) and because I could use it as proof citizenship/ID for work. Stagehands often work for up to 40 employers a year in the normal course of things and having 1 card that stands in for both a Drivers License and a Social Security card can really speed up paperwork.
I just looked it up: renewing your passport is $130, getting a passport card is $65.

[which_chick]

That's kind of neat to know about. I got the passport (originally) to go overseas (Amsterdam) and then I've just been renewing it for out of the country travel (the Bahamas, Mexico, Spain) since then. I'm not a huge traveler, but I do travel some.

[ranunculus]

The passport card only works as a real passport for a few countries, Canada being one. I fear that the current political circus might make those "friendly" countries discontinue that courtesy. Like the other people on this list I rarely actually used my passport for employment purposes because it is such an awkward size.

[spiffikins]

Also apparently the passport card also only works for travel "by land or by sea" - to those handful of countries and is NOT valid for international air travel. So yeah - not really a substitution for a passport.

I do sort of wonder though - if I pulled out my passport card to use as ID at a liquor store or to apply for a store credit card or something - if the cashier would even know what it was and recognize it as a valid piece of ID? It doesn't seem to be super well known?

[ranunculus]

I've been told a couple of times, by poorly trained personnel, that a Passport Card (or even a Passport Book) was not proof of identity. I just told them to look it up or to ask their manager which worked. I've also pointed to the list of acceptable ID's ON THE PAPERWORK and had that solve the problem.

[ranunculus]

I've been told a couple of times, by poorly trained personnel, that a Passport Card (or even a Passport Book) was not proof of identity. I just told them to look it up or to ask their manager; which worked. I've also pointed to the list of acceptable ID's ON THE PAPERWORK and had that solve the problem.

[spiffikins]

Not shocking!

BTW - I hope it's okay, I've added you to my friends list!

[spiffikins]

Wait - for an employer, how does your passport/passport card stand in for a social security card? Don't they still need your SSN to do your W2 (or equivalent)?

[ranunculus]

If you have your passport or Passport Card, that is the only ID needed for a W2 form. OR you can present a valid Driver's License (State ID) Plus a Social Security card. You need to know your SSI number, but you don't have to present it as ID. Employers that I worked for would often photocopy our ID's but they didn't care what we wrote down as SSI, they didn't need to prove they had seen it.

[ranunculus]

Not only did I work for a truly stupid number of companies, but toward the end of my career most of the companies required us to fill our new employment paperwork either once a year, or sometimes once a job. Jobs lasted between 1 day and 2 weeks. We stagehands wasted a LOT of hours filling in forms.

[spiffikins]

That's interesting! I guess I came at it from the other direction, the last times that I had to fill out employment paperwork - I was *not* a citizen, so not only did I have to show my visa, I also had to show that I had a SSN to be legally able to work.

[mistressofmuses]

"Too political." They can fuck off with that.

I do have a Real ID, but have also heard different info in terms of whether that proves citizenship or not.
I've seen "recommendations" (I use the term loosely, for people Saying Things On The Internet) to carry your birth certificate with you, but... I guess in combination with a current state-issued ID that could mean something, but I also feel like a birth certificate is real easy to have "disappear" the instant it gets into someone else's hands. Not that an ID doesn't carry the same risk, I suppose.

And of course, that does also still suppose that IDs are being looked at, which certainly doesn't seem to be the case. Mysteriously. Considering all the citizens that have been detained.

(Can't imagine why Kavanaugh wouldn't be proud.)

"Just carry your papers" is just such an obscene thing to have as fucking policy. And like I said above... I feel like even if you do have all the right legal forms, handing them over to a member of the secret police just means you don't have those papers anymore. "Nope, they didn't have anything on them. Nope, I didn't see any papers."

Of course, that is still if you even get that far, rather than being shot in the face.