(no subject)

[which_chick]

Yeah, I know. Three posts in a day and none of them contain actual news. Sometimes life is like that, full of sound and fury and so forth. (You are presumed competent to complete the quote, there, childruns. Upon watching the Closet episode of South Park (downloaded it off the internets), I was amazed that the mighty morphin powers behind the Church of Lafayette hadn't yet threatened to sue over being called a cult and that our dear Mr. Cruise had not responded with a snit, granting a hell of a lot more weight to the closet argument than he would have if he'd just let it slide as misfired satire. See, when the targets *object* then the perps can tell they've hit a nerve.)

Point the first: Does rhyming work the same in languages that are not English? Please support your answer with examples. Bonus points for answers that use non-roman scripts. wootsauce, I am looking at you. And also at you, not_your_real.

Point the second: Is it okay to freeze whole wheat bread dough for later? The recipe at hand (used for the baby shower bread) makes two loaves and I do not wish to have two loaves at one time. I would like to have ONE loaf at a time. Anybody know? I'm too lazy to research this and I'm hoping someone out there will just tell me so that I don't have to actually stir myself to use google or similar.

Comments

[sara-merry99.livejournal.com]

Apparently, however, one of the actors who does a voice for that show (a chef character maybe, I don't watch it) has quit over the fact that the show spoofed Scientology. He didn't mind it lambasting muslims or christians, but hitting those scientologists was just too much for him.

You get one try to guess his religion. :)

And yes, you can freeze whole wheat bread dough for later--but I don't quite remember the procedure. Well for freezing it, you just wrap it up well and put it in a ziplock bag and squish all the air out--do all of this *before* you do the second rising--and then put it in the freezer. And then you've bought yourself the time to look up how to go about thawing it and baking it. :)

[staceman.livejournal.com]

Funny that he didn't quit back when the episode in question was first aired, in November 2005.

From what I know of $cientology, they most likely pressured him to quit, else they'd air some of his (Isaac Hayes) dirty laundry publicly, things that he probably confessed during his "auditing" sessions, and was told was confidential.

It's so unbelievable to me that those people stick with that cult, after getting to the level where they learn about Xenu and the whole alien thing. Of course, by the time they reach that level, I imagine they're pretty far gone, as in brainwashed.

[wootsauce.livejournal.com]

(http://photobucket.com)

Smartassery aside, I think that rhyme is phonological and not orthographic. Things that used to rhyme prior to the great vowel shift, but don't rhyme anymore, confused me a lot in high school ("this famous poem...almost rhymes...but doesn't!") but that's a property of historical change and I wouldn't say that "nature" and "creature" fully rhyme now even though they used to.

Ways of writing poetry vary by culture, of course. I think in Bade, poetry is written based on beats of heavy and light syllables. Old English poetry was largely alliterative, maybe? ANd of course Shakespeare and his famous Iambic Pentameter.

In linguistics, there are 3 parts of a syllable, the onset, the nucleus, and the coda. The nucleus and the coda together form the rime (I think you use that spelling for it) unsurprisingly, since the nucleus and coda are the parts that make things rhyme.

So... in the word pat, the p is the onset, the a is the nucleus, and the t is the coda, and the -at is the rime, and monosyllabic worsd that end in -at rhyme with pat. (I know you know this, heh.) I might be wrong in saying that rhyme works the same in all languages in that the rime of the syllable should be the same. Here is part of a French song that I know:

je n'ai pas peur de la route
faudrait voir, faute qu'on y goute
des meandres
aux creux des reins

The second two lines are probably only a partial rhyme but I'm not fluent in French.

The real question, I suppose, is what about non-Indo-European languages? I know plenty of Japanese songs but I don't have a feel for line breaks. And, of course, there are plenty of songs that don't have rhyme schemes at all, and the problem of cultural poetry blah blah blah that I brought up before. And I don't speak Japanese. Ugh.

What would really be intesresting is to know if Chinese rimes haev to match in tone as well as nucleus and coda. I know that in popular music people have a tendency to ignore tones (and probably pitch accent in Japanese) so that doesn't help much.

Here's a page about rhyme in Burmese and Vietnamese (http://www.boloji.com/poetry/learningzone/pkz17.htm), which is pretty interesting.

Long story short: I don't know much about non-Indoeuropean languages. My bad.

[wootsauce.livejournal.com]

Actually, for those two french lines, I wouldn't be surprised if it breaks up like this, where / equals a line break:
[de meɑ̃ / dʀo kʀø de ʀɑ̃]
des mean/dres aux creux des reins

This is blatantly speculative, of course. Especially my IPA transcription.

[not-your-real.livejournal.com]

Chinese poetry doesn't use rhyme to my knowledge. I'm not aware of tonal patterns being used either, much as one might expect them to. What it is really heavy on (I actually took a class on this in college!) is parallelism (and of course having the same number of syllables - which is nearly synonymous with "same number of words" and definitely must have the same number of written characters - per line).

Parallelism is constructing lines such that the character in the line above matches the one in the following line it its imagery, part of speech, role in sentence etc. This is on a couplet basis. So it's like

Tall mountain pierces cloud
Sweet song enters heart

or something like that, only cooler.

All I know about different rhyming is someone's recent allegation on the Conlang list that languages with lots of heavy suffixation (so that all nouns end in -an, etc) either are not interested in rhyme or else tend to rhyme the syllable *before* the easy giveaway inflectional suffix. Sorry, there are no cites or examples here. Ain't in the mood.

[not-your-real.livejournal.com]

Ironically, my third sentence above is a great example of complete failure to parallelize properly (in the usual English usage).

[wootsauce.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that all (or even a majority) of cultures have poetry that depends on rhyme scheme, more like many languages have a concept of rhyming words that operates in the same way. Like I said, though, I don't know much about non-Indoeuropean languages. What you said about heavily inflected languages makes sense, and we do this to an extent in english I think (like singing rhymes with ringing, but not longing or darting). The not being interested in rhyme part is interesting and something I know nothing about.

[not-your-real.livejournal.com]

I actually kind of started off replying to you and then took off on what should have been a separate reply to which_chick.

Yeah, I don't know of any ways of rhyming that don't basically work like the one we're all familiar with (partly, this is because alliteration has a different name :) i.e. it's partly a matter of definition.)

In English, I think the rule is that the last stressed syllable (including secondary stresses), plus any which follow it, constitutes the rhymeable part. Since English is heavily biased towards penultimate stresses via our proclivity for iambs, this rarely causes a problem.

There are several antepenultimately stressed words in my previous paragraph, like "syllable" and "proclivity", and I would indeed be inclined to rhyme them from the "syll" and "cliv" syllables onward. Syllable - fillable. Proclivity, um, nativity?

[wootsauce.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely sticking to "rhyme" as "matching syllable rime" and treating it as a linguistic category, as you say about the definition. I might be trying too hard to make rhyme seem linguistically universal, though.

For those kind of words, I was (in previous comments) interpreting it more as stem + affixes, and the
stems have to rhyme. And, well, the affixes still rhyme, so I guess the stem is the critical pary. Like, affix + affix = partial rhyme, but (stem+affix) + (stem+affix) = complete rhyme... and stress has something to do with the stem placement in those words.

Your description of the rule is much better than mine, though, because it accoutns for multisyllabic words that don't seem to have any affixes, like aragon and paragon. Hmm. That does bring up that English words seem to need to match in stress to be a complete rhyme. Which would make me expect even more that (some) languages with tone-related systems to require matching tone, although I don't intend to measure the wrold's languages by English's behavior. The only speaker I know who speaks a pitch-accent language (Swedish) isn't being very cooperative, though.